Update Broke Tag Team Logic!

[Timberwolf]

Just had a great 6 man tag with the slightly longer run in check on the ref.

It was a 30 minute match and also chaotic, which is what you'd expect in a 6 man tag that a ref cannot control.

I'm liking this new logic more and more.

[Guacamole Anderson]

Another test.

Midnights at 90%
Fulton at 50%

Rogers at 10%

[Love Wilcox]

I just wanted to chime in and say that whilst I originally wanted to HATE the new changes, I’m actually starting to come around on them. I’m not 100% sure matches are better than before but I no longer feel like they’re worse overall.
I’m finding between 40-60% to be the sweet spot on average but I’m still finding reasons to go 0% or 100% for certain guys / gimmicks (100% chicken shit heel teaming with 0% hoss for example is hilarious, think The Miz teaming with Braun Strowman).

[OrochiGeese]

Yeah, I gotta give credit to the new system for two things:

1) Cowardly heels can now be simulated better in some ways by allowing them to leave after their offense. I did like the old system of them getting hit once then leaving due to damage but it's kind of funny to see them use something like an eye rake and then quickly tag out to their enforcer partner 😁  

2) TESTING has been made easier.  I was trying out some new tag team strategies and wanted one edit in the ring to initiate them up. It was really easy to keep them in the ring for the majority of the time by giving them 0% and minimize the inevitable time in the ring from the partner by giving them 100%.  

I notice that even 0% touchwork edits tend to stay in the ring for about 4-5 minutes.  I'm surprised they don't stay in for longer AND that there isn't a larger range to work with. Would have been nice to have like a 10 minute interval range based on the 0-100 touchwork scale just so that we could allow edits to stay in even longer AND so that we could control things a more clearly by having like each 10% worth of touchwork represent a minute in the ring.  Right now, the difference between 0% and 100% is like 4-5 minutes (not taking into account the situations the edits may find themselves trapped in before being able to tag).  I suppose that each 20-25% of touchwork represents a minute if it's divided evenly like that.

[turrible666]

For me, it's not so much "oh no, tag team logic is broken" so much as it is "oh no, now I have to go back and fix all nine billion of these edits." I really do like the ability to theoretically have an Andersons-style "tag in and out constantly and work over the good guy until the hot tag" situation though.

[Love Wilcox]

Agree 100% with Geese, a greater range (ie 0% = 10 minute tag intervals) would be very much appreciated.

[Guacamole Anderson]

I've been doing a little more experimenting today, messing around with things like Ukemi just to see what it does. I'm just in pure trial & error mode at this point.

One negative (I think) of lower Touchwork percentages is the likelihood of a wrestler to save their partner from a pin. Can someone confirm that lower Touchwork = greater likelihood to stay on the apron when a partner is getting pinned?

My current gut instinct looks something like this:

Heel teams

>75% Touchwork (ex: Midnight Express, Road Warriors, Hart Foundation)

Face teams

50-75% Touchwork (ex: Rock-n-Roll Express, The Guerreros, Fabulous Ones)

Singles with strong tag focus

25-50% Touchwork (ex: Steamboat, DiBiase, Bockwinkel, Funks)

Singles with weak tag focus

<25% Touchwork (Andre, Warrior, Abdullah, Sid Vicious)

But that may change as we twist the dials on this thing. Loving how this community comes together to figure this kind of stuff out...you guys are gold.

[OrochiGeese]

Dec 26, 2018 2:41:07 GMT Guacamole Anderson said:

I've been doing a little more experimenting today, messing around with things like Ukemi just to see what it does. I'm just in pure trial & error mode at this point.

Very good idea mixing ukemi into this consideration too 💡  That could work well for a partner freshly tagged into the match so that they could reverse everything from the other team after getting the hot tag from a "face in peril" partner. That "face in peril" partner could have low touchwork to take the beatdown and high ukemi to aid in that beatdown AND give them a spirit boost to survive until finally tagging out.

Dec 26, 2018 2:41:07 GMT Guacamole Anderson said:

One negative (I think) of lower Touchwork percentages is the likelihood of a wrestler to save their partner from a pin. Can someone confirm that lower Touchwork = greater likelihood to stay on the apron when a partner is getting pinned?

I actually think the Cooperation setting governs that, not the Touchwork setting. Not 100% sure though. 

Dec 26, 2018 2:41:07 GMT Guacamole Anderson said:

But that may change as we twist the dials on this thing. Loving how this community comes together to figure this kind of stuff out...you guys are gold.

Completely agreed and thank you so much for all of the testing and results you have posted 🙏

[Love Wilcox]

Another thing that I like:

You know how when bookers get lazy and throw two guys who are feuding into a tag match with two other guys who are feuding, pairing up the babyfaces and the heels?
Well if you give all four guys the same touchwork % and set the match up appropriately then they essentially “pair up” and stay within their respective feuds for the duration of the match (most of the time).

I don’t know if I’m explaining it right but I’m sure you get the idea?

[OrochiGeese]

Yeah, that's a really good point. 

So like Wrestler A is feuding with Wrestler C and Wrestler B is feuding with Wrestler D. So you get a tag match of A/B vs. C/D - you can have A and C in the ring against each other for periods of time and then B and D in the ring against each other. There won't be too much crossover between the feuding/rival pairs.

This is also a good idea for setting up matches where you have Student/Mentor vs. Student/Mentor or Rookie/Vet vs. Rookie/Vet.

[Timberwolf]

This new tag logic is awesome for 6 man tags. Use a referee with fast movement, fast count and a slightly longer run in check and it creates a formula for an absolute chaotic tag match that the referee cannot control.

This just happened.



The Kass Family vs the Biker Club. Both teams were just killing each other, even the non legal men. Tags were fast and furious. It was awesome!

Once I get my fed back up and running and this stable feud becomes canon, it's gonna be good.

[DM_PSX]

I didn't know Vader was in Aces & Eights.

[rsws]

This community is fucking brilliant. I LOVE these in-depth logic threads. If I was smarter, I'd add something to the conversation about logic, but believe me when I say that I'm soaking all of this up like a sponge.
Thanks you guys. c: You all help me make my edits better. Even when Spike throws us a curveball.

[heelsinc]

Dec 26, 2018 6:58:47 GMT OrochiGeese said:

Yeah, that's a really good point. 

So like Wrestler A is feuding with Wrestler C and Wrestler B is feuding with Wrestler D. So you get a tag match of A/B vs. C/D - you can have A and C in the ring against each other for periods of time and then B and D in the ring against each other. There won't be too much crossover between the feuding/rival pairs.

This is also a good idea for setting up matches where you have Student/Mentor vs. Student/Mentor or Rookie/Vet vs. Rookie/Vet.

You could do the opposite as well to make it where the heel doesn't want to be in the ring with the guy he has heat with so pair A with D and B with C

[Guacamole Anderson]

Been doing more work, focused on specialty teams (as opposed to singles guys who also do a lot of tag teams, like Arn Anderson). Here's how I'm approaching it:

    Touchwork set between 50%-100%...with some special cases for certain behaviors (like Ricky Morton set to 10%).

    Cooperation mostly at 100% or close to that.

    Discretion turned way down (20% or less). With the frequent tags, breathing isn't much of a factor.

    Flexibility turned way down (30% or less).

    Decided not to mess with Ukemi at this point.

Will try to post a few more test matches over the weekend.