Update Broke Tag Team Logic!

[Zealot]

Took the liberty of creating a thread in the General Discussions page on Steam as well. Didn't really bother to mention the discussions here since some people get butthurt about it. Either way, the more outlets they see this pop up in, the better.

[jetlag]

I just ran a bunch of tag matches and haven't really run into any issues whatsoever. Actually I think it makes a lot more sense to have wrestlers tag out after a specific time instead of waiting till they receive a certain amount of damage, but then again, I also liked that they stopped tagging out to simulate that feel of a classic japanese tag showdown...

[Guacamole Anderson]

Dec 23, 2018 13:41:50 GMT jetlag said:

I just ran a bunch of tag matches and haven't really run into any issues whatsoever. Actually I think it makes a lot more sense to have wrestlers tag out after a specific time instead of waiting till they receive a certain amount of damage, but then again, I also liked that they stopped tagging out to simulate that feel of a classic japanese tag showdown...

I've been running tag matches all morning between The Midnight Express and The Fantastics, experimenting with different referees. My "mid-card" tag team ref seems to be the sweet spot...shortest match was just over 15 minutes and the longest was about 25.

I'm going to spend some time this afternoon dialing up and down Cooperation and Touchwork and see what that does.

In general, I like what the update has done...more double-teaming, more situations where all four guys are in the ring. I'd pretty much given up on tag matches before this.

[Blehschmidt]

Dec 23, 2018 19:30:41 GMT Guacamole Anderson said:

Dec 23, 2018 13:41:50 GMT jetlag said:

I just ran a bunch of tag matches and haven't really run into any issues whatsoever. Actually I think it makes a lot more sense to have wrestlers tag out after a specific time instead of waiting till they receive a certain amount of damage, but then again, I also liked that they stopped tagging out to simulate that feel of a classic japanese tag showdown...

I've been running tag matches all morning between The Midnight Express and The Fantastics, experimenting with different referees. My "mid-card" tag team ref seems to be the sweet spot...shortest match was just over 15 minutes and the longest was about 25.

I'm going to spend some time this afternoon dialing up and down Cooperation and Touchwork and see what that does.

In general, I like what the update has done...more double-teaming, more situations where all four guys are in the ring. I'd pretty much given up on tag matches before this.

Please report back with your findings, and if possible the settings for that referee. You just name dropped two of my favorite tag teams, so if the matches are doing them justice, count me in!

[LankyLefty17]

I've been going back and forth on this since the patch dropped. I do think in the end the change is subtle for how I personally set up tag matches, and while the motivation for why they changed the logic is stupid, I'm not ready to say this is making tags worse.

The Good:

I disagree with the notion that tags should be based on health/spirit.  In pro wrestling, tag teams tag in and out base on "strategy" and advantage, and not simply because they're tired and need a break- this is especially true early in matches.  I'm actually finding it easier to regulate how teams tag in and out.  My big powerhouse that has low breath has a high tag rate- do his big moves and get back out of there, saving him up for the end of matches.  My guys that do most of the work throughout the match?  They have tag rate turn way down, and seem to carry matches regardless of where their health is at which seems to give me more options for creating hot tags (though admittedly I'm still playing around with this). 

The Bad:

When tags were based off health/spirit, tagging felt a bit more dynamic.  Because it depended on how much damage they were taking, you could see teams tag more or less depending on how the match was going.  It created more drama when they beat down opponent was trying to get that tag in but the other team kept dragging them back to the other corner.  I think this is still achievable with this new logic, but its possible matches end because someone doesnt tag out even though they're half dead because the "timer" hasnt gone off.  I do think there are some health/spirit checks still present (again per Carl) but its obviously not the primary indicator anymore.

To me, the things that frustrate me about tag matches the most are unchanged with this update.  Tag team moves still happen randomly and are impossible to regulate to late match.  Guys still tag out after big moves (I know that has been a complaint post patch, but I saw it pre-patch too).  Partners seem to randomly not help their partner even if they're right in front of their corner.  But I don't think this change breaks tags for me, and may actually open some opportunities to control certain aspects better once we all get a handle of it.

[Guacamole Anderson]

Dec 23, 2018 20:10:19 GMT Blehschmidt said:

Please report back with your findings, and if possible the settings for that referee. You just name dropped two of my favorite tag teams, so if the matches are doing them justice, count me in!

Okay, you asked for it. :)

I ran three matches. My personal edits... Fantastics vs. Midnight Express (Eaton & Condrey).

To keep variables at a minimum, I altered Touchwork only. Here's what I got:

100% Touchwork: 1.16 tags per minute

22:23, 26 total tags (12 by MX, 14 by Fants)

75% Touchwork: 0.91 tags per minute

18:35, 17 total tags (9 by Fants, 8 by MX)

50% Touchwork: 0.7 tags per minute

23:04, 16 total tags (8 by both teams)

THEN I watched an IRL match between the two teams from 1984.

13:00 TV time, 13 total tags = 1 tag per minute

(9 by MX, 4 by Fants)

This is hardly scientific, but hopefully helps give some perspective.

For the record, here's the ref I'm using:

[Dawnbr3ak3r]

Dec 23, 2018 6:34:34 GMT OrochiGeese said:

I tweeted this to Spike.  Hopefully it has some positive effect but I'm doubtful. I don't see them doing this huge overhaul in the engine then suddenly changing course cause some Goose on the internet cries fowl.

If anyone can explain this more clearly, I encourage you to message them too.

If anyone's going to explain it clearly, it's you.

[sonny615]

Dec 23, 2018 23:10:12 GMT Guacamole Anderson said:

Dec 23, 2018 20:10:19 GMT Blehschmidt said:

Please report back with your findings, and if possible the settings for that referee. You just name dropped two of my favorite tag teams, so if the matches are doing them justice, count me in!

Okay, you asked for it. :)

I ran three matches. My personal edits... Fantastics vs. Midnight Express (Eaton & Condrey).

To keep variables at a minimum, I altered Touchwork only. Here's what I got:

100% Touchwork: 1.16 tags per minute

22:23, 26 total tags (12 by MX, 14 by Fants)

75% Touchwork: 0.91 tags per minute

18:35, 17 total tags (9 by Fants, 8 by MX)

50% Touchwork: 0.7 tags per minute

23:04, 16 total tags (8 by both teams)

THEN I watched an IRL match between the two teams from 1984.

13:00 TV time, 13 total tags = 1 tag per minute

(9 by MX, 4 by Fants)

This is hardly scientific, but hopefully helps give some perspective.

For the record, here's the ref I'm using:

Thanks! 
How about setting the touchwork to 25% & 0% to complete the experiment? :)

While I understand what Geese is saying, tag matches feel much better to me. 
This is purely my feeling based on tag team matches I simmed, without getting too scientific. Surely, something maybe lost compared to the way tag matches were played previously, but if I look at an average tag match before the patch and an average tag match after the patch, I must admit that at the moment I am enjoying the current version more.

I guess it is possible to find a middle ground and further improve the dynamics, so I am looking forward to that. 

[Guacamole Anderson]

Yeah, kids wanted to make gingerbread houses yesterday.

Being a dad > Fire Pro
(But just barely ;) )

I'll hopefully have more time today to keep trying other things.

What has me cautiously optimistic here is the ability to tailor tag frequency more freely amongst teams, and create more "hot tag" type scenarios.

What has me cautiously pessimistic is that they'll just change things up again a month from now and here we go again.

[Guacamole Anderson]

Okay, update.

100% Touchwork: 1.16 tags per minute
22:23, 26 total tags (12 by MX, 14 by Fants)

75% Touchwork: 0.91 tags per minute
18:35, 17 total tags (9 by Fants, 8 by MX)

50% Touchwork: 0.7 tags per minute
23:04, 16 total tags (8 by both teams)

25% Touchwork: .43 tags per minute

23:31, 10 total tags (5 by both teams)

0% Touchwork: 0.42 tags per minute

26:36, 11 total tags (6 by MX, 5 by Fants)

[DM_PSX]

I just had a 4xx4 elimination end in 27:48. I could actually post these now. They used to run an hour.

[Zealot]

Interesting stuff here. Especially the shortened 4v4 elimination match.

Guac has some really good input here as well. Seems like the sweet spot is 50 or below for like a face team and then 50 or above for a heel team I bet.

[Timberwolf]

I ran an 8 man elimination tag with no cut play and a fast count ref.

The flow of the match was better in this case. Everyone got their licks in. Both teams were down to one guy and the match was over in about 45 minutes, which is what I normally get with this type of match before the patch, but with fewer tags.

As for regular tag, I'm starting to get used to this logic and am kinda liking it now. I just have to lower the touchwork, that's all, if I don't want to see a tag every time I blink.

I may delete my tweet later after I run further tests.

[Guacamole Anderson]

Below's a match where I was seeking to have the heels frequently tag and work over one of the babyfaces for an extended period of time. To that end, I set Touchwork at:

Eaton & Condrey: 75%
Fulton: 25%
Rogers: 10%

For what it's worth. Still experimenting.

[OrochiGeese]

I think people made some really good points over the past few days in favor of the new changes.   

I've cooled down a little but been thinking about the situation a lot so just wanted to weigh in again.

I still am not happy with the changes (due to preferring damage-based touchwork setting) but I do get where many of you are coming from in regards to feeling that 1) the changes making sense in regards to pro wrestling psychology and 2) the changes leading to many of you seeing as good, if not better, matches.

People can have different views on this stuff and I've always believed that the events in a Fire Pro match, as a simulation of a wrestling match, can be interpreted in different ways.  There's room to mentally make this new system work. I prefer a damage-centered system over a time-centered system but get why others may feel differently.  It was arrogant for me to act as if there was only one true way to look at tag psychology as through a damage-oriented view.  I can understand how timed tags play a role in tag strategy, especially early on in matches.  Maybe damage becomes the main reason wrestlers tag later in the match but the concept of "taking turns" to work the opponent is certainly something we see many tag teams do, especially heel teams.  


I also really like that so many people are trying to make the best of the changes (whether liking them or not) and find touchwork balances that work under this new system.  Thanks to Guacamole for those great time-based standards that really give me an idea of the time:tag ratio. 

Also glad to hear that 4 vs. 4 matches are more palatable.  Survival option on that will be easier to handle too.

I think it's likely that Spike won't change things back and I really don't want to abandon tag team matches from here on out so I'll probably have to try out some of these new standards and apply them to all of my tag edits.  Perhaps part of my resentment just came from realizing that I had to completely overhaul edits that were working really well for what I like to see. The majority of my singles edits have fallen short of my expectations in FPW (and fallen short of their perfomances in comparison to FPR) but my tag edits (and tag versions of singles edits) have shined for the past few months. So having to go back to the drawing board annoyed me.  I'm still very nervous about the new system but I'll have to accept that. As I said in a previous post, I think that matches CAN go in a similar way as they used to with this new system but every now and then it will be exposed - mainly when an edit drops a finisher sequence to tag out.  But accepting those cracks in the veneer is still better than just giving up tag matches completely.  And I've already begun to think of tag match partnership touchwork settings (and accompanying ukemi) with this new system in place. 

Another reason the changes irritated me so much was because I thought they had an easier solution to the problem they seemed to be facing.  It really seems as if the new team just doesn't know they have a command already in the game that is the answer to a lot of their problems. Even if I grow to like (or even prefer) the new time-based system, I'll always find it ridiculous FPW has a vestigial organ in that "call for a tag" animation. 


As an aside, I came up with some new ideas today that I'll probably test out in the next few days and post in another thread if they work.  I really hope they work as I'm excited about them.  They would work under the old or new system. But the conversation about the new system was kind of a mental catalyst for me so at least something really good may come out of this for me after all.