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Post by OrochiGeese on Jun 30, 2020 8:39:56 GMT
lol as soon as I saw Move Craft was a thing I thought about all the cool PATATAS moves I could see in LAWL. Or any LAWL moves for that matter. And yeah, the animation is really easy to get the hang of, but I've had some practice over the last few years. Yeah, I've mostly made serious moves so far but I'm looking forward to making wackier ones down the line. A lot of handshake routines that take up an unfortunately large part of the match, an exchange of boots between wrestlers, etc. Stuff that makes people feel uneasy in a "it's not actually offensive, but I get uncomfortable when he makes moves like that" idea. The kind of thing that makes people stay up at night wondering how their brain occupies the same world as mine. "Why did he have to go and make that potato stare at the corner post and scratch its knee for 2 full in game minutes?" LAWL-quality uneasiness 🥔🥽🧦 It helps to have an 'eye' for the Fire pro style so your stuff doesn't stick out too much. There were some official moves that deviated from this style that stood out, too. It would be interesting to see what their tools looked like going back to the SNES days. Finally getting to peek under the hood FOR REAL this time instead of the glimpses we got thanks to JB. He was working on some kind of move splicing thing for a bit but it was probably almost impossible. Now that we can make so many things, a thought has occupied my head recently: How real do we want these moves to look? At what point are we going beyond the "suggestive simulation" style of Fire Pro that has made it so great by trying to emulate every frame of a move? I'm trying to make certain default moves smoother and have more impact but if I go too far in either direction, they can feel like they're in a different game. So I've been mindful of these limits as of late, remembering that a key portion of Fire Pro is filling in the blanks with our own imagination. Speaking of... where the fuck is JB??? Oh and JB has been around very recently on the board 😎 |
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Post by OrochiGeese on Jun 30, 2020 10:33:12 GMT
I have two Move Craft questions:
1) I am confused as to how to think of & use the "Y" flag in the Animation List.
I just watched the first 10 Spike Youtube videos (which were useful) & 1 of the videos said that "Y" determines if the opponent is currently being hit by the move. I don't think they mean damage as that's "D" so I figure it means when the move is connecting with the opponent. However, when I look at the default moves as a guide, I'm not getting any sense of this. For some moves, the "Y" isn't chosen until after the impact is over.
2) Is there any other general advice people have for completing a move before uploading it? I have animations ready for like 30+ moves (they all seem ready in matches) but I just want to make sure I'm not overlooking anything.
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Post by mikeus on Jun 30, 2020 10:42:02 GMT
So I just about finished a move, it’s a submission so both wrestlers ended up laying down. How do I make the react normally then? Like after a move when they recover for a few seconds and get up normally?
Right now when I test it After the move they are on the mat, then instantly back on their feet with out sitting up or anything. When I look at other submission moves I don’t see any animations for getting up after or laying on the mat recovering.
Any advice would be appreciated! I did better than I thought I could making This but just keep finding one more thing keeping me from being finished haha
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Post by bourbonjungle on Jun 30, 2020 14:01:12 GMT
testing in it This was my first move test upon firing it up... lol Where can I download your moves on PS4? Your tweets just link the the PSN Store page for the game, not your creations. |
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Post by IamAres on Jun 30, 2020 16:21:21 GMT
[Now that we can make so many things, a thought has occupied my head recently: How real do we want these moves to look? At what point are we going beyond the "suggestive simulation" style of Fire Pro that has made it so great by trying to emulate every frame of a move? I'm trying to make certain default moves smoother and have more impact but if I go too far in either direction, they can feel like they're in a different game. So I've been mindful of these limits as of late, remembering that a key portion of Fire Pro is filling in the blanks with our own imagination. For my part, I'm only trying to "improve" moves that look actively broken to me - moves that I actively avoid assigning to guys unless I absolutely have to because they look bad, or there's something wrong with them that I can't unsee. For example, the literal second thing I did was take the upper blow and fix the frames where their wrist looks like it's flopping backwards, because that's bothered me since FPD and actively keeps me from giving it to people even though it's arguably the most common punch in wrestling. While doing it, I noticed it doesn't have that many frames, and doesn't even really have one of the fist traveling toward the opponent's face - your mind just fills in the motion (if it's not distracted by floppy wrist). Probably all owing to it being from at least the SNES days, when they couldn't afford the memory for a punch to have more than like three frames. I thought about adding a frame of "fist travel," but I decided I don't want it to look that different than the upper blow we've always known, I just want to fix the part of it that keeps me from using it. I'm working on the same thing with the Fujiwara armbar - three of the game's four Fujiwaras look awkward and broken to me, like you're trying to do the move with wrestling figures that don't bend the right way. I'm just trying to make the new ones look natural, like they've always been there, and still look like Fire Pro. It helps, of course, that I don't use custom forms if I can help it, but I don't JUST do that for pragmatic reasons - it also ensures that the final product does look like Fire Pro, and like it could have always been there. Just like with Parts Craft, I'm not really in this to make crazy stuff (nothing against those that are); I'm just trying to make more tools to make my guys with. |
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Post by Jason Blackhart on Jun 30, 2020 16:28:30 GMT
Speaking of... where the fuck is JB??? s^ I'm working on moves, of course, but have too many in mind that require a bunch of custom forms, so shit is taking way longer. My other issue is I tend to get about 70% done with a move and then start up a new one instead of finishing any of them... 1) I am confused as to how to think of & use the "Y" flag in the Animation List. I just watched the first 10 Spike Youtube videos (which were useful) & 1 of the videos said that "Y" determines if the opponent is currently being hit by the move. I don't think they mean damage as that's "D" so I figure it means when the move is connecting with the opponent. However, when I look at the default moves as a guide, I'm not getting any sense of this. For some moves, the "Y" isn't chosen until after the impact is over. OH! And I answered Geese's question about the "Y" flag on Twitter, but in case it'd help anyone else here that wouldn't see it there: Y = if that wrestler can be hit with a strike-type attack during that point of the animation. During grapples, you'll see Y will only be active for the attacker because they're the one you'd need to hit to break up the move. |
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Post by SonnyBone on Jun 30, 2020 16:46:39 GMT
So I just about finished a move, it’s a submission so both wrestlers ended up laying down. How do I make the react normally then? Like after a move when they recover for a few seconds and get up normally? Right now when I test it After the move they are on the mat, then instantly back on their feet with out sitting up or anything. When I look at other submission moves I don’t see any animations for getting up after or laying on the mat recovering. Any advice would be appreciated! I did better than I thought I could making This but just keep finding one more thing keeping me from being finished haha Try using form 100. I'm no expert yet, but form 100 is what I had to use to make sure they stayed down at the end with a frame length of 1. Maybe there's a different way, I'd love to hear it. But if your last frame is a custom form, it will just snap to them standing up. |
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Post by gonzalez on Jun 30, 2020 17:06:58 GMT
Can’t wait for the moves that would’ve been in Fire Pro HD.😏
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Post by Jason Blackhart on Jun 30, 2020 19:25:43 GMT
Good gawd, that just reminds me that the alpha version of Move Craft had the version info window read "Fire Prowrestling HD SKILL editor".
Also, the bit I mentioned about the Y flag only being on the attacker of a grapple isn't entirely accurate. Y can be set on the defender, but it's usually at the end of a move where they're still standing (i.e. grapple strikes that don't knock the opponent down). In those moves, you might have a few frames where the victim is still reeling during the "sell" animation where it's possible to hit them with a standing attack.
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Post by Phil Parent on Jun 30, 2020 19:45:23 GMT
Happy to see Bone around, always liked SB.
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Post by rollinsphan on Jun 30, 2020 21:53:10 GMT
SONNYBONE LIVES
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Post by gonzalez on Jun 30, 2020 22:57:58 GMT
It’s good we’re past April.
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Post by OrochiGeese on Jun 30, 2020 23:03:13 GMT
For my part, I'm only trying to "improve" moves that look actively broken to me - moves that I actively avoid assigning to guys unless I absolutely have to because they look bad, or there's something wrong with them that I can't unsee. Yeah, I totally get what you mean. There have been moves that I've wanted to assign for years cause I like them in real life but they have looked terrible in FPD/R/W. And I've always said that you have to come to the game with imagination to fill in some of the gaps but some moves just look so poorly animated or have so little impact that I could never choose them. An example would be the default Samoan Drop. Just can't in good conscience use that 😁 For example, the literal second thing I did was take the upper blow and fix the frames where their wrist looks like it's flopping backwards, because that's bothered me since FPD and actively keeps me from giving it to people even though it's arguably the most common punch in wrestling. While doing it, I noticed it doesn't have that many frames, and doesn't even really have one of the fist traveling toward the opponent's face - your mind just fills in the motion (if it's not distracted by floppy wrist). Probably all owing to it being from at least the SNES days, when they couldn't afford the memory for a punch to have more than like three frames. Floppy fish-wrist syndrome is a known obstacle to enjoying a punch 😂 I thought about adding a frame of "fist travel," but I decided I don't want it to look that different than the upper blow we've always known, I just want to fix the part of it that keeps me from using it. Yeah, I've had to decide whether to completely overhaul some moves or just fix the specific annoying part. It helps, of course, that I don't use custom forms if I can help it, but I don't JUST do that for pragmatic reasons - it also ensures that the final product does look like Fire Pro, and like it could have always been there. Just like with Parts Craft, I'm not really in this to make crazy stuff (nothing against those that are); I'm just trying to make more tools to make my guys with. The challenge I've had recently is wanting to smooth out the animation by adding more frames while still having the move feel like a Fire Pro move. A lot of smaller Fire Pro striking moves have like 3-4 frames with significant differences in X/Y coordinates for each of the parts of the body. They need a few more frames to look smoother. Then I need to figure out the timing to give all of the frames after I add new ones. But when I do it wrong (either by adding too many frames or messing up the timing), it either looks objectively bad or it doesn't look like it belongs in Fire Pro. I have had success recently though adding one or two "delay" frames in the lead-up before a big impact move really triggers. Like the Original Oosotogari, for example. Just adding one more frame of "backward extension" and having that frame be a little bit longer, really adds an extra oomph to the eventual forward motion (which I've sped up for a few variants). My other issue is I tend to get about 70% done with a move and then start up a new one instead of finishing any of them... I have over 35 moves that are unfinished 😪😁 I have not finished or uploaded any of them. I really, really need to at least finish one and then I can probably get into a groove. But I've had so much fun making new ones. It took me until last night to actually watch the videos. I initially jumped head first into the mode. I surprised myself with how well I did with so little instruction but it kind of came back to haunt me a little since 1) I've relied on custom forms too much (which will likely be a memory issue later) and 2) I put off dealing with things I didn't know which caused me spiritual ennui about my ability to complete the moves and not have them be glitchfests. Last night I worked on my last move for the near future though. My goal now is to finish watching the videos and finish the existing moves. OH! And I answered Geese's question about the "Y" flag on Twitter, but in case it'd help anyone else here that wouldn't see it there: Y = if that wrestler can be hit with a strike-type attack during that point of the animation. During grapples, you'll see Y will only be active for the attacker because they're the one you'd need to hit to break up the move. Also, the bit I mentioned about the Y flag only being on the attacker of a grapple isn't entirely accurate. Y can be set on the defender, but it's usually at the end of a move where they're still standing (i.e. grapple strikes that don't knock the opponent down). In those moves, you might have a few frames where the victim is still reeling during the "sell" animation where it's possible to hit them with a standing attack. Ohhh, that's interesting and helpful! 💡 I like when a defender gets hit by a punch then rocked with a strike from another opponent. I'll check each frame to see when it's logical for the attacker and defender to get hit. |
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Post by SonnyBone on Jun 30, 2020 23:14:45 GMT
Good gawd, that just reminds me that the alpha version of Move Craft had the version info window read "Fire Prowrestling HD SKILL editor". Also, the bit I mentioned about the Y flag only being on the attacker of a grapple isn't entirely accurate. Y can be set on the defender, but it's usually at the end of a move where they're still standing (i.e. grapple strikes that don't knock the opponent down). In those moves, you might have a few frames where the victim is still reeling during the "sell" animation where it's possible to hit them with a standing attack ![]()   Now that we can make so many things, a thought has occupied my head recently: How real do we want these moves to look? At what point are we going beyond the "suggestive simulation" style of Fire Pro that has made it so great by trying to emulate every frame of a move? I'm trying to make certain default moves smoother and have more impact but if I go too far in either direction, they can feel like they're in a different game. So I've been mindful of these limits as of late, remembering that a key portion of Fire Pro is filling in the blanks with our own imagination. Yeah, this is quickly becoming a big issue with downloadable edits. The style is all over the place. They tie the parts craft and move craft to an edit and if you don't like any of those, you have to clone and go in and take them off. Lots of edit heads have that NBA JAM BIG HEAD MODE look, too. I jumped back into Fire Pro excited about moves then quickly remembered that I never really used other people's stuff because I'm so picky about it. Suplex DDT and PowerBomb placement on the dpad is still an issue... lol I think the initial flood of content is great but if this IS the last update for the last Fire Pro ever, then we'll see the cream rise to the top eventually and this weird experimental phase will pass. Everybody needs time to get GUD at the craft modes, then the herd voting kicks in to see which is the definitive version of this or that. It will be interesting to see which direction that herd goes... more realistic or more Fire Pro. But it made me think about DE MAKING an entire moveset for laughs. Have an old school edit with low res sprites for parts craft and reduce all the frames in its animations. Name him Retro Remoulade or Old School Orville or whatever. |
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Post by SonnyBone on Jun 30, 2020 23:21:26 GMT
Also, the bit I mentioned about the Y flag only being on the attacker of a grapple isn't entirely accurate. Y can be set on the defender, but it's usually at the end of a move where they're still standing (i.e. grapple strikes that don't knock the opponent down). In those moves, you might have a few frames where the victim is still reeling during the "sell" animation where it's possible to hit them with a standing attack. I still need to watch the rest of the move craft vids, but I had a question about the D flag. It was supposed to be the damage flag, right? But when I added the D flag to the frame where the damage goes on either the attacker or the defender, it made it RED and would not let me save/register it. Are some of these flags reserved for certain types of move situations / types? I guess maybe I should go through all the vids first but I also wanted to ask if there was a running post/thread with a FAQ/GUIDE in progress or anything like that? Should we be making one? Or is all this kind of shit happening on Steam community pages now? |
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