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Post by DM_PSX on Jul 5, 2019 4:58:09 GMT
Ok I guess I had better understanding then what I'm letting on. I've used the guide I guess what I'm asking what works as a build from a start of the match to the end of the match how do I round out all the moves to a wrestler. I have built some themed wrestlers like my undead goalie and pitcher who have moves that are mostly themed around what they used in the sport. The goalie has mostly open hand hits and kicks. while the pitcher is mostly punches and sliding/low kicks. When I have watched wrestling their full moveset doesn't stick out to me and I don't have the time to carefully watch a wrestler to really figure it out. So I guess my problem is rounding out a full moveset. Despite all of that there are some good tips here I can work with so thank you for that. It helps to think in terms of AJPW/King's Road style matches, because that's what the game is simming. Figure out what your endgame is in terms of an impact finisher and a submission hold, and then wear down those body parts. Add in a signature move or two just to flesh out their personality. Also, choose moves that set the opponent up in the required position(s). Randy Orton finishes with RKO, the corner DDT, or the running head punt. So he spends the match leading up to that doing knuckle arrows, corner 10 punch, long chin locks, an over the back neckbreaker, a spinning neckbreaker. Undertaker finishes with the tombstone piledriver. So he softens his opponents up with throat chops, the old school (throat chop with flourish), DDT, a very stiff looking running DDT off the ropes, big boot to the face and a chokeslam. Bret Hart uses the Sharpshooter and sometimes the piledriver. So he attacks the legs and spine. Manhatten drops, headbut to the stomach, top rope superplex, running forearm drop etc to the middle of the upper back. He's criticized for having his 5 moves of doom, but they tell a story and build up to the finish being effective. Austin and Cena didn't adopt the STF at random. It traps them on the ground, and targets their head to ready them up for the finisher. The Rock adopted the sharpshooter because it compliments his back slam based offense. Wrestlers will have a false finish too. Either a submission hold, or a pin combo that they know won't finish the match. But it puts pressure on the affected body parts, and it's very painful and tiring to kick out. Don't make it more complicated then it has to be. :) And don't always look to real wrestlers for inspiration unless you're specifically making them. A lot of their movesets can be a random mess with no obvious logic. |
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Post by faulknasty on Jul 5, 2019 5:25:37 GMT
Ok I guess I had better understanding then what I'm letting on. I've used the guide I guess what I'm asking what works as a build from a start of the match to the end of the match how do I round out all the moves to a wrestler. I have built some themed wrestlers like my undead goalie and pitcher who have moves that are mostly themed around what they used in the sport. The goalie has mostly open hand hits and kicks. while the pitcher is mostly punches and sliding/low kicks. When I have watched wrestling their full moveset doesn't stick out to me and I don't have the time to carefully watch a wrestler to really figure it out. So I guess my problem is rounding out a full moveset. Despite all of that there are some good tips here I can work with so thank you for that. It helps to think in terms of AJPW/King's Road style matches, because that's what the game is simming. Figure out what your endgame is in terms of an impact finisher and a submission hold, and then wear down those body parts. Add in a signature move or two just to flesh out their personality. Also, choose moves that set the opponent up in the required position(s). Randy Orton finishes with RKO, the corner DDT, or the running head punt. So he spends the match leading up to that doing knuckle arrows, corner 10 punch, long chin locks, an over the back neckbreaker, a spinning neckbreaker. Undertaker finishes with the tombstone piledriver. So he softens his opponents up with throat chops, the old school (throat chop with flourish), DDT, a very stiff looking running DDT off the ropes, big boot to the face and a chokeslam. Bret Hart uses the Sharpshooter and sometimes the piledriver. So he attacks the legs and spine. Manhatten drops, headbut to the stomach, top rope superplex, running forearm drop etc to the middle of the upper back. He's criticized for having his 5 moves of doom, but they tell a story and build up to the finish being effective. Austin and Cena didn't adopt the STF at random. It traps them on the ground, and targets their head to ready them up for the finisher. The Rock adopted the sharpshooter because it compliments his back slam based offense. Wrestlers will have a false finish too. Either a submission hold, or a pin combo that they know won't finish the match. But it puts pressure on the affected body parts, and it's very painful and tiring to kick out. Don't make it more complicated then it has to be. :) And don't always look to real wrestlers for inspiration unless you're specifically making them. A lot of their movesets can be a random mess with no obvious logic. Ok this is very helpful. My next weakness is not knowing what different styles really are. I still don't know what king's road is. I'm not even sure what exactly makes Lucha style different because I don't think all Lucha means quick and high flying wrestling (Is high flying more than dives and top rope moves?) |
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Post by Nth on Jul 5, 2019 5:44:08 GMT
It helps to think in terms of AJPW/King's Road style matches, because that's what the game is simming. Figure out what your endgame is in terms of an impact finisher and a submission hold, and then wear down those body parts. Add in a signature move or two just to flesh out their personality. Also, choose moves that set the opponent up in the required position(s). Randy Orton finishes with RKO, the corner DDT, or the running head punt. So he spends the match leading up to that doing knuckle arrows, corner 10 punch, long chin locks, an over the back neckbreaker, a spinning neckbreaker. Undertaker finishes with the tombstone piledriver. So he softens his opponents up with throat chops, the old school (throat chop with flourish), DDT, a very stiff looking running DDT off the ropes, big boot to the face and a chokeslam. Bret Hart uses the Sharpshooter and sometimes the piledriver. So he attacks the legs and spine. Manhatten drops, headbut to the stomach, top rope superplex, running forearm drop etc to the middle of the upper back. He's criticized for having his 5 moves of doom, but they tell a story and build up to the finish being effective. Austin and Cena didn't adopt the STF at random. It traps them on the ground, and targets their head to ready them up for the finisher. The Rock adopted the sharpshooter because it compliments his back slam based offense. Wrestlers will have a false finish too. Either a submission hold, or a pin combo that they know won't finish the match. But it puts pressure on the affected body parts, and it's very painful and tiring to kick out. Don't make it more complicated then it has to be. :) And don't always look to real wrestlers for inspiration unless you're specifically making them. A lot of their movesets can be a random mess with no obvious logic. Ok this is very helpful. My next weakness is not knowing what different styles really are. I still don't know what king's road is. I'm not even sure what exactly makes Lucha style different because I don't think all Lucha means quick and high flying wrestling (Is high flying more than dives and top rope moves?)
King's Road is predominantly 1990's and 2000's All Japan Pro Wrestling style. There is a heavy emphasis on storytelling in matches as well as plenty of high impact moves and 2.9 kickouts. Matches generally are slower paced and longer than average with big matches often going between 30 and 60 minutes.
Matches generally swing back and forth on a momentum pendulum between wrestlers as well as have neutral periods where both wrestlers are so beaten down it's too close to tell who has the advantage. True King's Road style doesn't really happen as much anymore due to the pretty intense toll it takes on wrestlers, but Pro Wrestling NOAH basically uses a King's Road Lite style.
Here's an actual explanation of AJPW's King's Road style
Here's an explanation of NJPW's Strong Style
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Post by faulknasty on Jul 5, 2019 13:31:25 GMT
After watching the Kings road style video I now understand where the mechanics come from and why it's hard to fit some ideas for wrestlers into the system like do squash matches.
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Post by Dawnbr3ak3r on Jul 5, 2019 15:19:43 GMT
As a rule: Squash matches are nearly impossible in this game unless you start finangling with mods, and even then, it's kind of an annoyance.
I've basically "kayfabed it" to the point where anyone on my roster could be a potential champion, or anyone could beat anyone else if they're strong enough.
I'm going to watch that Strong Style video because even when I get asked about what it is, I have a hard time defining it.
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Post by faulknasty on Jul 5, 2019 15:52:17 GMT
As a rule: Squash matches are nearly impossible in this game unless you start finangling with mods, and even then, it's kind of an annoyance. I've basically "kayfabed it" to the point where anyone on my roster could be a potential champion, or anyone could beat anyone else if they're strong enough. I'm going to watch that Strong Style video because even when I get asked about what it is, I have a hard time defining it. Oh yeah that's what I learned about squash matches. I just wanted to build a guy Goldberg style through some of the weaker wrestlers but then be more balanced with the top of my card but yeah that doesn't work. The strong style video wasn't as good as the Kings road. Strong style just seams to be mma but wrestling |
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Post by view619 on Jul 5, 2019 16:06:30 GMT
Unless you're willing to pick up a controller and hold down the Ukemi button so your edits can land their finishing moves within the first minute, squash matches are impossible.
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Post by Recall on Jul 5, 2019 19:13:57 GMT
A squash isn’t a short match, it’s an extremely one sided match. They just happen to usually be short.
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Post by jetlag on Jul 5, 2019 20:16:22 GMT
As a rule: Squash matches are nearly impossible in this game unless you start finangling with mods, and even then, it's kind of an annoyance. I've basically "kayfabed it" to the point where anyone on my roster could be a potential champion, or anyone could beat anyone else if they're strong enough. I'm going to watch that Strong Style video because even when I get asked about what it is, I have a hard time defining it. Oh yeah that's what I learned about squash matches. I just wanted to build a guy Goldberg style through some of the weaker wrestlers but then be more balanced with the top of my card but yeah that doesn't work. The strong style video wasn't as good as the Kings road. Strong style just seams to be mma but wrestling
Strong Style is basically a marketing term that doesn't really mean anything. Back then nobody knew what MMA actually looks like and Inoki succesfully worked everyone into thinking he was the world greatest martial artist with his enzuigiris and powerbombs and backdrop suplexes and short arm scissors and what not. If there is a distinction between New Japan and All Japan it's that New Japan booked submission holds to be more important, and also matches to be shorter and unpredictable, often intentionally baiting and switching the fans, while the focus in All Japan was to give a show above all else. But the whole NJPW = martial arts/catch wrestling equation doesn't really hold up since AJPW had martial artists and hookers too and using legit techniques was standard everywhere in the world in the 70s because studying tapes was not yet a thing. You are better off watching some influental matches like Inoki/Oki or Inoki/Robinson if you want to understand the whole thing, but it really takes a lot of watching to wrap your brain around the 70s/80s japanese style and it's many variations.
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Post by OrochiGeese on Jul 5, 2019 22:00:14 GMT
Unless you're willing to pick up a controller and hold down the Ukemi button so your edits can land their finishing moves within the first minute, squash matches are impossible. I agree with this but want to just focus on one point for the benefit of faulknasty . Without mods, it's impossible to reliably guarantee that a squash match happens between two CPU opponents since there is nothing we can do through edit making to influence what causes a squash match. Having some type of "Goldberg runs over an opponent who doesn't get any offense" match would entail stipulating one wrestler to win more grapples than the others. Unfortunately, Fire Pro doesn't allow this type of control. We can set ukemi but that is just choosing whether to (not) counter who wins the initial grapple. Fire Pro's grappling system is determined by a random number generator mixed with CPU difficulty level. It's nothing we can actually influence. That mean that you absolutely will, on occasion, see squash matches of the type you may want. Unfortunately, you won't ever have a direct hand in reliably making that happen since it's all occurring due to mechanics "under the hood" that we have no control over. So if you build a monster edit, you may occasionally see a squash match because "random chance" may dictate that wrestler keeps winning grapples. If they keep winning grapples and the parameter comparison of wrestlers is high, you will see a squash. You just can't guarantee that will ever happen. Even if you give the highest stats/parameters and most aggressive logic to one edit and the opposite to the other, the CPU (and random chance) could choose the second wrestler to win every grapple and dominate the match (even if the parameters make it a very slow and grueling crawl). |
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Post by Dawnbr3ak3r on Jul 5, 2019 22:31:52 GMT
www.twitch.tv/dawnbr3ak3r/clip/MoistIncredulousGrassDancingBanana^This is as close to a squash monster that I've ever created. That was probably 80% RNG and 20% actually mechanics. I've never tried to engineer an edit to deliberately squash ("squash") anyone since this happened, and I don't recall it happening like this since.
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Post by faulknasty on Jul 5, 2019 23:07:42 GMT
I wanna clear up what I was originally trying to say about squash matches being hard to fit into the system is that I had already learned that squash matches can't be done unless by complete luck like everyone had been saying. I only bring this up because everyone is talking about this and it has completely gotten away from the help I was really looking for. No hard feelings to everyone answering about squashes, I know everyone is trying to help which is why I come to the boards and really enjoy my time here. Just wanted to get the ship back to talking about filling out complete move sets.
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Post by DM_PSX on Jul 6, 2019 0:47:37 GMT
I wanna clear up what I was originally trying to say about squash matches being hard to fit into the system is that I had already learned that squash matches can't be done unless by complete luck like everyone had been saying. I only bring this up because everyone is talking about this and it has completely gotten away from the help I was really looking for. No hard feelings to everyone answering about squashes, I know everyone is trying to help which is why I come to the boards and really enjoy my time here. Just wanted to get the ship back to talking about filling out complete move sets. Squash Jobbers! www.criticalclub.com/thread/976/dm-psxs-ultimate-jobber-edit |
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Post by faulknasty on Jul 6, 2019 0:51:21 GMT
I wanna clear up what I was originally trying to say about squash matches being hard to fit into the system is that I had already learned that squash matches can't be done unless by complete luck like everyone had been saying. I only bring this up because everyone is talking about this and it has completely gotten away from the help I was really looking for. No hard feelings to everyone answering about squashes, I know everyone is trying to help which is why I come to the boards and really enjoy my time here. Just wanted to get the ship back to talking about filling out complete move sets. Squash Jobbers! www.criticalclub.com/thread/976/dm-psxs-ultimate-jobber-editI believe I have had these since I bought the game |
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Post by IamAres on Jul 6, 2019 2:31:26 GMT
Honestly, I think Firepro can sim any type of wrestling pretty well. When I think if something geared towards Kings Road style, I definitely think King of Coliseum.
Where Kings Road is a really good guide for what you're looking for, though, is in the fact that almost everything big they're GOING to do is set up by something similar but smaller earlier on - OR has an even bigger move that could happen in an extreme situation.
For example, Misawa's shit is the Tiger Driver. That's his go-to move that he is 100% building his match around. So earlier in the match, he'll probably end up hitting a doublearm suplex because he's looking for that Tiger Driver but they're too strong to control them that much yet. So he settles for the lesser move for now. He'll probably also get a Tiger suplex in, which uses a similar grab but from behind. Branching off THAT yet, he'll also use German suplexes when he can't get the Tiger yet.
Eventually, he's gonna get that Tiger Driver. He may or may not win with it, but if he doesn't, he's got options that build further from there - he's got an extreme version of it in the Tiger Driver 91, or he can do it off the top rope. He's also got a more extreme version of the Tiger suplex, and he also might do the suplex off the apron or off the top rope as well.
My point is, that just by basing off the Tiger Driver, having smaller options that build UP to it, or bigger versions he can break out AFTER, we've got close to a dozen moves all just centered around and related to that one. And he's got a similar related array of elbow strikes.
Now, that's not the only way to build a moveset by a long shot, but it shows one way that a moveset can be logically stitched together in a way that many of the moves relate to each other. And that guy had a few pretty decent matches.
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