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Post by amsterDAN on May 9, 2019 15:11:06 GMT
I've found that on the one hand, there are simmers who treat edit-making itself as a sort of sport, where it's all about what you can make happen within the confines of the vanilla game mechanics, and it is very important to them that their edits behave the same way on someone else's computer as they do on theirs. On the other hand, there are simmers whose main goal is to try and force this wonky-ass game to show them the most realistic-looking match they can possibly squeeze out of it by any means necessary. To the former group, the thought of using the rest holds mod is almost offensive. For the latter, the rest holds mod can be an absolutely crucial component in making a wrestling match look "right". Basically, are you trying to put together good-looking and competitive pro-wrestling shoot matches, or are you trying to stage a more true-to-life theatrical pro-wrestling play? I say both ways are equally valid ways to play the game, and it's perfectly possible to do both. The goal for both approaches you've stated is exactly the same, getting this wonky-ass game to churn out realistic matches as consistently as possible. Any move that should be a rest hold is already a rest-hold in the vanilla game. In fact, using rest-holds mod blatantly goes against realism because any wrestler anyone likes does everything they do with doing damage and finishing their opponent in mind. A wrestler slapping on any hold late-match that's above what the game itself deems as a resthold is expecting it to potentially end the match. Yes, wrestlers frequently do moves that never win matches. I see this as a failing of pro wrestling psychology that takes me out of it. Guys I like do it all the time and it sucks. It makes zero logical sense that a guy throwing a sick lariat 20 minutes in wouldn't end the match. Especially when they do it several times. Likewise, it makes zero logical sense that a hold that would realistically snap someone's arm in two would not potentially finish a match. Call it a "shoot" mentality, but this is fundamental shit designed to prevent the suspension of disbelief from being entirely shattered. Distinguishing "Competitive pro-wrestling shoot matches" from "true-to-life theatrical pro wrestling play" is pointless because they're the same thing. Even guys like Omega and The Young Bucks do everything they do with getting closer to the end in mind, they just have a flashier way of going about it. Honestly, a lot of this post reads like a fundamental misunderstanding of the game. As if there's a weird expectation that good edit makers do not have as close to total control as you can get, and don't know how to ensure late match holds rarely tap. Yeah, I'm pretty confident after 1477 hours logged that the problem is not that I "fundamentally misunderstand" this game. Sure, I'll probably never achieve the comprehensive depths of Fire Pro enlightenment that you so clearly possess, or appreciate this game from that elevated plateau of understanding where you sit, Brick, but I understand this game more than well enough to serve my purposes and get exactly what I want out of it, thank you very much. With all due respect to you, your post reads like you fundamentally misunderstand how to let your hair down and just enjoy yourself while playing a video game. What it boils down to is this: I want something different from my copy of the game than you want from yours. That doesn't make you a good edit-maker and me a bad one. That doesn't mean I play wrong and you play right. How I play my game has precisely zero impact on how you play yours, and you never need to encounter my "bad" edits unless you choose to. I design my edits to do what I want them to, and they do, and you design yours to fight the way you want them to, and they presumably do as well. You may personally believe that every move that should be a rest hold is already a rest hold in the game, but neither you nor Spike Chunsoft is the arbiter of what I and others consider to be a rest hold or not. If your opinion is that real-life rest holds suck and therefor Fire Pro rest holds also suck, that's fine and a perfectly valid reason to leave them out of your game. But other people feel that because rest holds are such a common part of an actual pro-wrestling match, it adds a dash of realism to sims to see them there too. Lastly, please elucidate where exactly you felt that I suggested "good edit makers do not have as close to total control as (I) can get, and don't know how to ensure late match holds rarely tap". What combination of words in my paragraph made you think I was saying that, exactly? I definitely did not mean to make that insinuation, and frankly I don't feel I did, I think you just settled on a very strange interpretation of my post. |
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Post by wrasslinisreal on May 9, 2019 16:00:18 GMT
Actually I think the point being made is there is multiple ways to make an edit do what you want, mods being one of them. And calling one “right” and one “wrong” seems like a silly stance to take. If it works for people to use the mod, I dont see why thats a bad thing. There is no 'right' or 'wrong' way to make a Fire Pro edit. There is only 'what the author wants it to do'. If an edit does what it's author wants it to do, then it is good. If someone else's edit does not do what you want edits to do, that doesn't make them 'bad', it just makes them not for you. Wow this thread has opened up quite a bit! :) I can see where takuan is coming from, especially as a single player game perspective; within our own little world, if it does what you want it to do then it is fine. At the same time, I understand everyone else who has an issue with this because we want the game to reflect what we see in real life. Overall, I think FPW is a few logic options away from being truly special. |
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Post by Dawnbr3ak3r on May 9, 2019 16:14:52 GMT
There is no 'right' or 'wrong' way to make a Fire Pro edit. There is only 'what the author wants it to do'. If an edit does what it's author wants it to do, then it is good. If someone else's edit does not do what you want edits to do, that doesn't make them 'bad', it just makes them not for you. But what if your edits hit top rope moves and never pin afterwards? Or don't have priorities to resolve the awful base game logic of chaining dives? D: I try really hard not to have my edits act like the Young Bucks. |
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Post by IamAres on May 9, 2019 16:54:11 GMT
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Post by view619 on May 9, 2019 17:20:47 GMT
On a serious note, another thing the Rest Hold mod (and rest holds in general) does in terms of game mechanics is to wear down the opponent's spirit even further so that when the actual finish happens it's more likely to end the match. So, while it may be fluff for the purposes of simulating a real wrestling match it definitely has an application within the Fire Pro engine. And that's all with zero risk of the match ending on something like a chin lock.
Although I prefer modifying specific moves as rest holds in the Move Data Editor since I dislike the way Rest Holds mod affects every hold that isn't a signature or finisher.
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Post by LankyLefty17 on May 9, 2019 17:38:46 GMT
On a serious note, another thing the Rest Hold mod (and rest holds in general) does in terms of game mechanics is to wear down the opponent's spirit even further so that when the actual finish happens it's more likely to end the match. So, while it may be fluff for the purposes of simulating a real wrestling match it definitely has an application within the Fire Pro engine. And that's all with zero risk of the match ending on something like a chin lock. Although I prefer modifying specific moves as rest holds in the Move Data Editor since I dislike the way Rest Holds mod affects every hold that isn't a signature or finisher. I personally agree that this is the better approach. If you see certain moves as ones that shouldnt finish, and want to use them as such- this is probably the better mod to use.
Again for me the biggest risk to any of these mods is the workshop. If you want other people to use your edits, and you've used mods that tweak the core gameplay (rest holds, movelist, match pacing, ect) you run a very high risk of your edits being super wonky in things like efeds and tournaments. Its the primary reason I don't use them. But if you're not really intending to share? Go nuts.
I see one of the bigger hurdles with any of the gameplay mods is often times people who use them don't understand their intended use, or the impact if the mod is taken off. But for those that do, it can potentially add a tool that the base game doesnt cover.
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Post by amsterDAN on May 9, 2019 17:55:58 GMT
I prefer modifying specific moves as rest holds in the Move Data Editor since I dislike the way Rest Holds mod affects every hold that isn't a signature or finisher. Hmmmm, maybe I need to consider moving to this method. I haven't made much use of the move data editor just yet because until recently I had so many custom parts and modded moves installed that I was always riding right along the cusp of what my computer can handle, and it seemed extremely laggy when I went to use the editor. I initially favored the Rest Hold mod just because of how easy it is to patch in and out, like when I run my LUXURIOUS PURPLE JACKET matches I always take the ten seconds to unpatch since I just never know if someone else's edit might have a sub not tagged as a sig or finisher that they would still want to be able to finish. But I suppose I could do the exact same thing patching the move data editor in and out as needed. Since I also have a little list of moves I've been meaning to make able to cause ringouts, perhaps the time is right for me to jump into that move data editor now. |
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Post by view619 on May 9, 2019 18:03:12 GMT
It's pretty easy to get around the lag, I just search for specific moves and modify them accordingly; works without any issues.
I've noticed that even without custom moves scrolling through the full list can be painful.
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