Joint and Stretch at just 1 offensive stat

[Recall]

So I’m not as good at the logic game as I would like to be and continue to get very annoyed when matches end with a rest hold submission. So I’ve decided to neuter the rest holds and early match basic submissions by making my edits only have 1 in their parameter stat for Joint and Stretch unless they use a submission hold as their finish.

I think more edits should have a wider range of parameters as very few people, myself included, seem unwilling to have more drastic parameters.

[craziej2k]

Try setting ground submission logic in "Opp. Condition Critical" and standing submission moves Leg Dmg to 0%, that should cut them out completely

[Recall]

Thanks for the help :)

I still wonder how much of an impact stats have.

[wrasslinisreal]

Apr 30, 2019 8:39:46 GMT Recall said:

Thanks for the help :)

I still wonder how much of an impact stats have.

craziej2k is right, even if you have a rest hold at 1% in the 'opp critical condition' phase, there is a chance (1% but a chance nonetheless) of the edit going for that move at that stage of the match. If you don't want that move to happen at all in the latter stages of the bout, allocate 0% and it should not occur. 

[wrasslinisreal]

Apr 30, 2019 7:21:15 GMT Recall said:

So I’m not as good at the logic game as I would like to be and continue to get very annoyed when matches end with a rest hold submission. So I’ve decided to neuter the rest holds and early match basic submissions by making my edits only have 1 in their parameter stat for Joint and Stretch unless they use a submission hold as their finish.

I think more edits should have a wider range of parameters as very few people, myself included, seem unwilling to have more drastic parameters.

Stats do have an impact as the offensive parameter stats determine how much damage that parameter type does/deals to the opp, and the defensive stats determine how resistant the edit is to those parameter types. If edit A has 1 parameter point for offensive joint moves, and edit B has 5 parameter points for defensive joint moves, each time edit A performs a joint move it will not have a great effect on edit B. If you want edit A to be proficient at joint moves then you can increase the joint parameter points. Overall, how effective an offensive parameter move is also depends on the corresponding defensive parameter points of the opponent.



You'll also need to consider how often moves of that parameter type occur. If you give an edit a rating of, for example, 6+ for joint parameter moves and the vast majority of this edit's moves are joint based, they'll probably batter the opponent (unless the opponent has an unusually high defensive joint rating). If you give an edit 9 parameter points for power moves and pretty much all of the edit's moves are power based, again, the edit will most likely batter the opponent. Unless you are creating a 'cement' edit, people avoid this
'imbalance'.


When you look at Spike's NJPW DLC and look at how they allocate parameter points, very rarely does an edit get allocated more than 7 for anything (and 7 is high). Michael Elgin is a powerhouse but from what I remember his offensive power rating is about 6 (or 7 max). You'd think it should be 8 or more but it isn't the reasons could be (I say 'could' be because I'm at work and can't access the game) a)most of his moves are power based so giving him more offensive power points could make him over powered, and/or b) parameter point allocation seems to be (for me personally) dynamic. When I say dynamic I mean it could be based on how 'over'/popular/ high on the card the wrestler is. Elgin is probably the strongest in NJPW, but he isn't top of the card (say Okada, Omega, Naito etc) so his power moves have less impact.


To clarify the 'dynamic' aspect,  I mean that parameter point allocation can be based on how 'over'/popular an edit is rather than how good they are. What I mean is that Kenny Omega and Okada are the best in NJPW, and the parameter point allocation reflects this. From what I remember, their defensive parameter points are all 7's and a few 8's (I think). Michael Elgin's defensive parameters are nowhere near this. Does this mean Omega/Okada have stronger bodies than Elgin? No? But do Omega/Okada lose often? No. So, their defensive parameters need to be high to allow them to be resilient, stay in the match, and lose infrequently.

[Brick9mm]

Parameters are completely relative. That is to say, a 1-1 edit mirror match will be the same length as a 10-10 edit mirror match. Parameters are merely a modifier for the base offensive power of each move and the defense power of the opponent taking it. All parameter spreads have their time and place.

Setting Joint and Stretch to 1 does nothing besides make the edit's holds extremely ineffective unless their opponent is at 1 Joint and Stretch Def, in which case, it will do the base amount of damage. For most offense parameters, setting them to 1 is deliberately stating you don't want certain moves to help progress the match, which goes against the very foundation of pro wrestling psychology; everything is done with wearing your opponent down in mind. That's the entire kayfabe point of a rest-hold and it's very apparent in good matches.

Honestly, I think having 1s in offensive parameters is bad even for Jobbers because the way spirit and Ukemi and the game works usually inherently guarantees an edit will get in some offense. For the sake of match quality/feeding into the opponent's ukemi, it's better for jobbers to have higher offense parameters than 1s.

[IamAres]

1 joint, 3 stretch isn't an unusual arrangement for an American style guy who does very little submission wrestling. Of course, he's probably making up for it in lots of other areas.

It's ALL colored by status, too. A main event guy with the exact same actual skill set would have higher numbers across the board than a mid-card guy, but he would still be weak or strong in the same areas. And it is all relative. You by no means need to have high numbers to have a good match.

[Recall]

If a wrestler possess zero submission ability beyond a rest hold why would joint and stretch need to be higher than 1?

Giving them a 3+ for no real reason seems counter productive :shrug:

[Severla]

Bad thing is that with FiPro, we lack the expansive moveset count such as SvR/2k have, so its debatable in putting in rest holds at all if just giving them 1s.

Edit: also, for the fact that subs do really low damage as is if you're on higher difficulty settings to sim, too.

[Brick9mm]

Apr 30, 2019 20:19:14 GMT Recall said:

If a wrestler possess zero submission ability beyond a rest hold why would joint and stretch need to be higher than 1?

Giving them a 3+ for no real reason seems counter productive :shrug:

I have zero submission ability but I tapped out a friend with a headlock once, lol. If you lock in a hold, it's gonna hurt. And if someone's really bad at holds, like, really bad, for some reason, then don't have the edit do them. Good wrestlers don't do things that don't do damage. From a game mechanic perspective (because I know if Soak reads this, he'll eat me whole), having a 1 in stretch or joint is counter-productive, because it's feeding into the opponent's ukemi less than it would if it were higher, to the point where it's just a lazy way of stalling. But you can drag things out in ways that are not only lazy, but can add to excitement. 

[ninjabrute]

Apr 30, 2019 20:19:14 GMT Recall said:

If a wrestler possess zero submission ability beyond a rest hold why would joint and stretch need to be higher than 1?

Giving them a 3+ for no real reason seems counter productive :shrug:

-Paramaters are not ratings.
-There's a reason. It helps to pace the match.
-A wrestler may not be a submission expert but any hold he/she does should hurt. 
-Having a high parameter does not mean they will or won't end the match when the move comes out. Good overall edit making will do that for you.

Parameters, skill, moveset, and logic do not exist in a vacuum, neither does any single edit. Therefore you can't try to explain them like they do or you perpetuate bad habits from games long preceding FPW.

[LankyLefty17]

Apr 30, 2019 21:38:19 GMT ninjabrute said:

Apr 30, 2019 20:19:14 GMT Recall said:

If a wrestler possess zero submission ability beyond a rest hold why would joint and stretch need to be higher than 1?

Giving them a 3+ for no real reason seems counter productive :shrug:

-Paramaters are not ratings.
-There's a reason. It helps to pace the match.
-A wrestler may not be a submission expert but any hold he/she does should hurt. 
-Having a high parameter does not mean they will or won't end the match when the move comes out. Good overall edit making will do that for you.

Parameters, skill, moveset, and logic do not exist in a vacuum, neither does any single edit. Therefore you can't try to explain them like they do or you perpetuate bad habits from games long preceding FPW.

This.  People mistake parameters as "stats" on whether or not someone is good or bad.  Its not about good or bad, its about how much damage an edit will do.  "3+ for no real reason" is a bad idea, but I don't think that's what anyone is saying.  Parameters can be low for a move type if you edit does those types of moves a lot  (cause otherwise they can blow through matches) or really high if they only do it one or two times (like for a finisher or something).  Or it can be reversed- you can set punch to 10 if you have a punching dude that you want to blow through people.  Think less about what the edit is "good" at and more, how do you want the edits matches to look, and how long do you want the matches to go.

The hardest part of this system is the fact that looking at the stats alone don't dictate how an edit will perform, everything plays into itself.  Its all relative maaaaaan...

[jetlag]

The length some people will go through to avoid cleaning up the logic section and set non-finishing holds to 0% at Near Death like every single guide on logic out there recommends... By this logic a match between two edits with only 1s in the offense department would never end.

[Recall]

May 1, 2019 19:56:44 GMT jetlag said:

The length some people will go through to avoid cleaning up the logic section and set non-finishing holds to 0% at Near Death like every single guide on logic out there recommends... By this logic a match between two edits with only 1s in the offense department would never end.

Don’t make assumptions, I’m just asking about the stats I didn’t say I wouldn’t incorporate the logic information given.

[astrozombie]

There is no near death for some submissions though. I can totally see a scenario where you might want a move, like a bear hug, to be applied later in a match. Logic seems to go through medium damage rather quick (from what I can tell) so you might stick a bear hug in late damage logic BUT you do not want it to submit the other wrestler. A bear hug in the small damage area of logic will be broken up quickly and look very odd so you are left with only two area damages logic wise to see the bear hug, medium and large (in my opinion). Arm rating will affect this too, I assume, but I hope you see the point I am trying to make.

Also it could depend on what era you are simming or what you want. You might want a headlock at the 20 minute mark before the big "go home" moment; I have seen plenty of that in American wrestling. The 70s and early 80s were pretty much suplex, body slam, rest holds, taunts and finishers.

I forgot who said it but I agree with the statement that parameters are an ends to a mean (or something like that).